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S1E09 - How do i work on my personal growth as a leader?


Inside this episode

Today we are in conversation with Steve Dwire, an Entrepreneur and Technology Leader Professional Coach and we explore the topic of personal growth and how you as a leader can take the time to step away from managing others and take the much-needed time to reflect on yourself.

Host: Aaron Rackley

Guest: Steve Dwire

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Show Transcript

These transcripts where auto generated by Descript. If you see any issues, please do reach out and we can rectify the issues.



Aaron Rackley: [00:00:00] Hi, everyone, and welcome to this episode of the Tech Leadership Decoded podcast, the podcast where through conversations, we unravel the intricacies of leadership in the tech industry, provide insights on how to become a top performing leader. Today, we are in conversation with Steve Dwyer, an entrepreneur and technology leader, professional coach, and we explore the topic of personal growth and how you as a leader can take the time to step away from managing others and take that much needed time to reflect on yourself.

But before we can start the conversation, can I ask a quick favor? If you like this conversation and the podcast as a whole, please do remember to subscribe on your favorite player and share a link to this episode on your social media sites so we can reach even more amazing technology leaders like yourself.

Thank you. And with that, let's just jump straight into today's episode. Okay, and thank you for joining me today, Steve. Hope you're having a great morning for you, evening for me. Thanks so much, appreciate

Steve Dwire: being invited.

Aaron Rackley: Yeah, thank you for coming on [00:01:00] and today I've got you on to talk about Um, how can I work on my personal growth as a technical leader, um, but leader, technical leader in brackets, um, but before we get into that conversation, do you just want to give everyone your five minute, this is your life intro?


Steve Dwire: Um, so I, I spent probably a little over 20 years leading software engineering and it teams in the corporate world. Uh, everything from a tiny little startup to a fortune 100 company. And what I discovered during that time is that most engineers weren't prepared for that internal change that they needed to be successful as they moved up in leadership, myself included.

You know, I wasn't prepared for that. And many of the people who promoted me were focused on [00:02:00] their own deliverables. They didn't really know how to coach the leaders who reported to them. Or maybe they had too many direct reports to truly be able to invest in us. Or they just assumed that we already knew how to lead or we figured out on our own.

You had, um, Kevin Ball on, um, back in episode three, I think it was. And he talked about growth focused management, but the unfortunate reality is that very few of us as growing leaders actually had or have that kind of a growth focused manager to help us figure things out. And, um, and that's the way I was, but in about 20, well, 2013, I started realizing that I wanted to do something more than just being in the corporate world.

So I started my own software as a service [00:03:00] startup and. Come 2022, I realized I can't keep doing both at the same time. So I left the corporate world focused on the startup, had a bunch of growing there as I realized that the market I was going after was underserved. Specifically because they didn't want the kind of service I was trying to offer.

Right. So it was through that, that I hired a professional coach to help me figure out what do I do with this? And through that process, I learned I didn't really miss writing code. I didn't really miss managing infrastructure, but what I really missed was having one on one conversations with. The people who reported to me and seeing them grow and change and get promoted.

And I realized I just hired a guy to [00:04:00] spend the next year having one on one conversations with me. This is a profession. This is how I want to spend the next chapter of my life. And so that's where my passion for this personal internal growth has come from. And that's when I, when I saw your message on Slack channels that, that, that looks like a good opportunity to help people with that internal personal growth.


Aaron Rackley: in For personal growth, where do you think that differs from just generic professional development? In that essence, why do you think leaders need to prioritize that personal

Steve Dwire: growth? Yeah, I, I like that you distinguished professional from personal. They are different things, though there is a huge interaction between the two of them.

So when we talk about professional development, yes, that's learning and practicing of [00:05:00] specific job related skills. When we talk about personal development, I'm talking about more of the internal issues, such as a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset or things like imposter syndrome or the ability to choose one's habits more than the specific habits themselves.

So it's, it's been said that we are human beings, not human doings. And yes, there's certainly a relationship between the two because. To some degree, we do what we are doing because of who we have been being. And it's just as true that to some degree, we Are who we are being because of what we have been doing.

James Clear talks about this in Atomic Habits. He describes that circular influence between our habits and our identity. [00:06:00] And as I read his explanation, I understand that the habits are the doing. That identity is the being. And practically, all of that leadership development that I experienced in my career.

It was focused on the doing side of things. People weren't equipped to talk about the being side. A lot of companies have mentorship programs and those focus on that doing side. Uh, I think it was your very first episode. You had Aaron Fox talk about how to go about getting a mentor if you, if you want that.

And they're, they're great opportunities to learn from somebody who's succeeded. In that path that you're traveling, because that mentor's area of expertise is in that skill that you're being mentored on. Um, and, and if that's the kind of professional development you're looking for, then yeah, mentor is a great choice.

And often [00:07:00] larger companies, they will have an entire department that they refer to as learning and development. Oftentimes that's part of HR or people operations, but historically learning and development really translated into training and that was about it. And again, much of that training was focused on safety, security, legal compliance, things that a company has to do in order to manage the risk of having so many employees and even when a learning and development.

Um, topic does start to get more internal, such as, you know, let's, let's explore emotional intelligence or employee engagement or having crucial conversations, things like that. Even the internal personal development programs tend to take the form of things like computer based training, or at most a two to three day live workshop.

Some of them [00:08:00] will include periods of hands on practice or role play and that, that does help to kind of ingrain that training more than just a lecture, but it's still often focused on practicing a certain habit or a practice of doing. As we're growing as leaders, we often find ourselves stuck trying to adopt that new way of doing.

Because of. That more internal way of being, and that's where I see that internal personal development having the biggest impact because even a group workshop over a period of a few days, it's just not structured to help a person with lasting growth in that being. So once one trend we are starting to see, and this is a positive, in my opinion, is that more and more companies are starting to bring in professionally trained coaches.

Or maybe even just [00:09:00] getting professional coach training for their learning and development team members And even some department managers are getting training and professional coaching so that they're equipped to help team members with those internal changes that will help them succeed. And so that helps fill in the gap that we've seen so often where executives get this kind of coaching that comes from the outside to help them with that.

internal issue. And those leaders closer to the front lines tend to miss out. Well, that that's starting to change. And so that's, uh, that that's a positive trend in my opinion.

Aaron Rackley: As, as a leader, that's looking to start a personal growth. What, where do I start? What's the first thing in your journal that I should be doing that.

Sets me on the path

Steve Dwire: to the, if we look at first thing, it's really about identifying [00:10:00] what is the goal you want, you want personal growth, but for what reason I was just having breakfast this morning with the gentleman and he shared this metaphor that he's going to be presenting. Uh, coming up to a leadership group, I thought it was, it was really effective.

Try to try to envision, uh, he had a really thick rubber band. It was the kind of used for exercise or physical therapy, the big stretchy band. Yeah. Let me put my thumbs in it and stretch it out. And he said, anchor your right hand to the edge of the desk. Imagine that is your current state, and then you stretch it out as far as you can, and that's, you know, that's the vision that you have for the future, and you feel that tension.

If your right hand is anchored in where you are, what's going to happen is your vision for the future is going to retract and get pulled [00:11:00] back, and it's going to keep moving and becoming less and less. But if you can anchor your other thumb on the vision where you want to be, And you lift up the anchor from your right hand, then your current state will naturally tend to move towards that vision.

So really, the where to start is first identify what is that gap you want to close? What's that compelling vision that's going to draw you into a change?

Aaron Rackley: Okay, so discover your high level goals or find out where your goals are. And then I guess we look at finding the gaps in our Um, areas of expertise or areas of interest or whatever, and then try and find places to fill that knowledge?

Is that, am I reading that right?

Steve Dwire: Right, that, that, yeah, that's a, that's a good high level. Often, you know, when I'm, when I work with somebody, I will start [00:12:00] with an assessment that really helps people get a clearer picture of the inside of them. Um, okay. There's a, there's a saying we kind of live inside a bottle and when you live in the bottle, it's really hard to read the label.

Uh, so it's clever. It's helpful to get somebody outside and that's where a professional coach or somebody with that kind of training is very helpful. And so different kinds of assessments are helpful for that, to be able to explore, what are your strengths, what are your interests, uh, what are the, the things that you've, that you personally find fulfilling, what's your satisfaction level with all these different areas, because sometimes, especially in the, In the corporate environment, when we're thinking about personal growth in a professional environment, we tend to wear these blinders and focus only on professional development in [00:13:00] the corporate environment and not think about the impact that physical health Relationships, family, financial freedom, spiritual health, mental health, all of those different things have an effect.

And so spending the time to actually investigate all those different areas and say, how, how satisfied am I with these areas and identify not just the skills gaps, but The fulfillment gaps and then look for the patterns about where, where are some things in common and then identify of those areas, where are the areas that I feel compelled now, having seen this, where do I feel compelled invest.

Where it's not, it's not going to be [00:14:00] my boss or some, um, some website that says here is the effective way or the best way to do something. It's not going to be some standard driving me toward that improvement. It's going to be a personal attachment to that goal that draws me to it. So identifying those areas would be that next step.

Aaron Rackley: One thing, what I'm hearing is like personal growth obviously involves kind of like stepping out of your comfort zone, um, and into something that you're not either not used to, or you're afraid to, to attack really. Do you have any kind of like advice that you could give for people for like trying new approaches, taking risks?

Um, that kind of aspect,

Steve Dwire: I'm trying to remember the exact phrasing, but it, it, it is something like the treasure just to remember the treasure that you're after is in the place that you're [00:15:00] afraid to go. Okay.

Aaron Rackley: That's very interesting. I'll definitely look that up to see, no, it

Steve Dwire: was something like something like that.

But I mean, you, you picture a cave, um, that, that you're, you're afraid to enter into that area. But, uh, the most compelling visions are, tend to be on the other side of it and it's when we are only half heartedly interested in the goal that it's so easy for us to let go of it and stay in our comfort zone.

So back to that metaphor that a gentleman presented to me just this morning at breakfast. If your anchor is current state. You're constantly looking at, well, this is the way things are. This is who I am re looking at with a, what we call the fixed mindset. So many of the assessments that I've seen, like to put [00:16:00] labels on people, you know, the, the disc, you know, oh, I'm a, I'm a high C on the DISC assessment, or I'm an INTJ, or I am a, I'm a number four on the Enneagram, or whatever, whatever it is.

I personally don't like the assessments that put labels on people. It, a lot of people, it works for them, but for me, that label tends to emphasize and reinforce that identity that's associated with current state rather than keeping that focus on, well, this is, this is the area I want to be at. This is the goal, constantly reminding yourself of that goal gives that draw to take those steps into those comfort zones.

Out of the comfort zone. Excuse

Aaron Rackley: me. Yeah. Earlier, you mentioned a couple of phrases that I think would be interesting to just mention because we haven't heard of them so far on the podcast, which is, [00:17:00] um, fixed and growth mindset and imposter syndrome. And could you just quickly explain like in a couple of sentences, what each of those mean so that we can.

Uh, see how that affects your personal growth.

Steve Dwire: Sure. Um, fixed versus growth mindset. And the, the science on this is, um, I don't wanna say the science is changing, but they're discovering, um, discovering new things around this arena. But generally speaking, a fixed mindset is one that says, this is who I am.

My identity is fixed. And you're just gonna have to learn to deal with it, because this is who I am. Um, and I can never Accomplish whatever, because, for example, back in 2013, my identity was, I am a software guy. So, if I'm going to start something new, it's going to be by developing software and building that, because that's who I am.[00:18:00]

But a growth mindset is one that recognizes, I can look ahead, and I can set a goal and have a dream that's bigger than who I am today. And I am capable of becoming that person, even if that's not who I am today. Yeah. Imposter syndrome is somewhat related. Uh, the way I like to describe it is many times when somebody becomes a manager or especially when they become a manager of managers and they're, or they're, there's, they're the director and they go to that first staff meeting.

With the other directors and that feeling is I finally have a seat at the table But I feel like I don't belong here. Mm hmm and The result is that that person they show up at the meeting and they stay silent [00:19:00] they're not ready to voice their perspective and What happens is the company misses out on the value of a perspective that comes from the peoples and the teams and the, or the product line or whatever their area of responsibility doesn't get represented.

Because they feel like everybody else has this figured out. And I'm the only one who feels like I have no idea what's going on. And especially moving into people management skills, when you thought you just got promoted, and you discover that you actually completely changed careers. That entering into that, especially when you Didn't get the kind of training and coaching and reinforcing that is starting to become a trend.

Now you enter in, you think, well, everybody else knows how you're [00:20:00] supposed to have one on ones. Everybody else knows how feedback is supposed to work. All of my peers have this figured out and I'm the only one who doesn't know. And I'm afraid to ask any questions because I don't want people to realize that I'm a fraud.

And that. belief, that fear of being found out as a fraud is one of those things that keeps people from progressing in both personal growth and in professional

Aaron Rackley: growth. Yeah, I think this is something I've, I've noticed over the very short years that I've been alive and working. But um, is that a lot of companies, a lot of people are in the positions they're in because they've grown with the company or they've just naturally progress through their career, but like you say, a lot of companies are not set up to help you when you progress to the next stage.

Um, and I think if there's something to tell anyone that's listening, it's that. You know, [00:21:00] we've all been there. We all get, we all get pushed to a new role and we take on new responsibilities. And unfortunately, I'm the kind of person that thrives in not knowing what I'm, like, not understanding or not knowing things, because I like to learn.

So when I start a new role, I'm very much like, okay, I want to know everything. I'll absorb. So like this podcast, right, I go out there and I read books and I read everything I try and absorb. But I know there's a lot of people out there that are not that. Mindset and like you say have this kind of imposter syndrome that they're not ready for it But we're all in that boat and I think um, I think companies in general need to get better Even I think smaller ones.

I know that a lot of big companies have these kind of processes in place But I think a lot of smaller ones definitely need um help in just setting up these kind of like Onboarding kind of coaching, um, aspects when they move roles, if, and hopefully that means that they'll approach people like you and others who have these facilities in place.

So they don't have to hire [00:22:00] someone full time in their own organization. Right.

Steve Dwire: Especially in the smaller ones when almost every role is fractional.

Aaron Rackley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The smaller you get, the more fractional you're all right. But, um, so I've had a quick look at your website. Um, And I'll put the links in the show notes to everything so they can go see your coaching services.

But I thought what I found interesting was that your coaching has, um, two pillars, which is alignment and advancement. And I thought that was interesting. Is there a way, can you tell us what the difference between the two is?

Steve Dwire: It's, it's really about two different goals. Um, oftentimes, especially those who are coming to me.

Individually and paying for their own coaching. Yeah. Sometimes they're looking at their role at their job. And they're saying, I don't know if I even want to be here. I don't know if this is the right [00:23:00] place for me. And they are exploring possibly even changing careers, changing jobs. And so that's very much more of a personal development side of things.

And so that, that's what we would explore during that coaching engagement. Or for those who say, I know this, or I believe this is where I want to be. And I want to get promoted. I want to be able to advance. Um, but either. Um, I haven't had the opportunity or I don't believe I'm ready or I think I'm ready, but nobody else seems to be noticing that.

And I keep getting passed over for promotion. So that would be that other, that other pillar, the, the approach and the tools and the techniques are really the same. It's just recognizing two different kinds of future state that people are to achieve.

Aaron Rackley: Okay. Interesting. Um, so. [00:24:00] I imagine that on my journey of personal growth, um, I'm on my own one.

Part of this podcast is part of that journey. Um, but you're gonna inevitably be hit with setbacks, you're gonna face challenges. You're gonna, there are gonna be some tough points. Do you have any, uh, like techniques on how we can turn those negative or Into like a positive experience or how can we get the best from it?

Steve Dwire: Well, first of all congratulations for stepping into that discomfort zone and starting the journey I think that's one of the biggest things that people fail at is even taking that first step. You've taken more than that first step because you've, you've reached out. I am not your first podcast guest.

You know, you've, you've, you've been exploring that. The second thing is something that you have already recognized. You [00:25:00] said it yourself. We all experience these things. These setbacks are common. Everybody faces the setback. I love a quote from Zig Ziglar. He says, and I'm saying this from memory, so it's going to be something like this.

But it's, failure is an event. Not a person. Okay. So the failure is something that happened. It is not who you are. You're not a failure. The experiment didn't get the results that you hoped it had. Um, yeah. And so remembering that, and I even hesitate to use the word failure because several different people who come at this different way, Oh, embrace failure because, because unless you fail over and over again, you're never going to get to success.

And other people say, Oh, it's not failure. It's just [00:26:00] learning. And when they, they choose not to use the word failure, just because for many people, it has an emotional component to it, whichever way you choose to use the word failure, when you do experience that, you use the word setback that experiment that.

activity that didn't have the results that you were hoping for.

Just ask yourself, what do I learn from this? And what will I do differently as a result of what I just learned? Um, I just posted, uh, this morning, uh, article about feedback and how when we look at feedback, As a past focused exercise, then it can drive that negative spiral. But when we are disciplined to look at [00:27:00] feedback as always forward looking, always in terms of what future behavior are we going to encourage as a result of this, it helps re anchor that attention on that goal that we're trying to achieve.

And as long as we keep that goal anchored back to that image of the, that stretchy band from, from this morning, then that will draw our current state closer towards that, that goal that we've envisioned for ourselves.

Aaron Rackley: Yeah. I think, um, I think on, it must be Instagram, Twitter, one of those social medias, I still like an image.

that had someone said, um, how did you get so good? And they said, experience. They said, how, how did you get the experience? And they said, I fouled a lot. I think that was, I thought that was very interesting because it. Yeah, whenever I, I listen to a lot of podcasts around, um, [00:28:00] like people that have started up businesses or have eventually got successful business.

And they always say the same thing. A lot of them have in common is that they tried multiple things, they tried a lot of different avenues, and it was eventually the one that stuck, right? Or, you know, because they learned a lot from mistakes they made on other ones. And I think that's, I think that's true in every.

Every walk of life, to

Steve Dwire: be honest, there's a podcast that I listened to the way where I cut my teeth on the doing side of management is called manager tools. Okay. And one of the things that they, um, one of the hosts, his name is Mark Horstman. And he would say this frequently. He said, um, good judgment comes from experience.

And experience comes from bad judgment.

Aaron Rackley: That's really good. See, I like it. I like that a lot. I'm definitely going to add that one to my Twitter. Um, so I think, um, obviously it's an ongoing journey. Um, and it's, [00:29:00] it's not going to be something that's going to happen overnight. And I imagine it's going to be, I imagine it never stops, right?

I hope not. Yeah. Um, how Can someone track their personal growth and ensure, like, and kind of see that they are improving, because I think sometimes you as an individual find it very hard to notice the change. Um, like for me, I only notice a change in mine is when I'm actually having conversations with colleagues at work and I'm starting to.

impart knowledge that I've learned through the podcast or through other stuff. And that's where I'm starting to pass that knowledge on. And that's the only time that I reflect and notice that I've changed. Um, and for example, I'm a, I have a few neural challenges. I am ADHD and I'm slightly bipolar, so I am quick to judgment and I'm a quick to kind of Come to a conclusion on something which is not [00:30:00] necessarily the positive and um, I think in the short time I've been doing the journey for last year is My fiance even said to me the other day that for one of the first times in a long time, we'd had a conversation about sign and it was the first time where I hadn't, I'd, I'd been too calm.

She was, she was confused by how calm I was on the outcome of the conversation. And I said, I think generally that's because of what I've been learning and trying to self reflect over the year, but how is there some tools that other people can use, um, to reflect?

Steve Dwire: There are a lot of different ways. I think I mentioned Often when I start an engagement from coaching, we will start with a, an assessment.

Yeah. So there, there are formal assessments that you can go through and then repeating that assessment. So if, if we'll have a six or nine month coaching engagement, start with an assessment at the beginning, [00:31:00] you figure out what goals you want to work on and then at the end, take the assessment again. So that's a very formal way to be able to see it.

Um, but it doesn't have to be that formal for many people. Simply the exercise of journaling, uh, and establishing a habit of journaling. And I go back and forth on this. Sometimes I am extremely, extremely faithful. I am going to journal absolutely every single day. And then I'll go for periods and not journal at all.

And, you know, I don't want it to become the, um, the dictator. Yeah. It's a tool to serve me. I'm not serving it. Yeah. But that's, that is another way that you have a written record of this is something that I was struggling with, and you can go back to that journal. I actually have multiple journals, one that's more for taking notes in meetings and conversations, [00:32:00] and another one that is strictly self reflection.

For whatever reason, I've chosen a red. journal, a red Moleskine journal. Well, we could

Aaron Rackley: look into that another day. What's that? We could look into that another day for the meaning.

Steve Dwire: I have no idea what it means. It may have just been, it was the one that was on sale at the time, and so that one will be, I'll reserve that one for a personal introspection journal.

But, but that's a, that's another way just to. To have an opportunity to look back at what you've documented about how you were feeling over the past, but another way that I'm experimenting with and it's, it's

almost taking a software development strategy and applying it to personal development and that it's, it's almost like the, a [00:33:00] sprint A scrum like sprint, but for me, I'm still experimenting with this. I have a, a form that I've put together. I've only been doing this for two weeks. So, still early experiment, but it's, it's writing down very specifically.

These are the goals that I want to accomplish in these two weeks. These are the daily habits that I expect are going to contribute. to accomplishing those goals and then tracking on a day by day basis how well did I do according to those to those habits. And after the two weeks I'm actually re evaluating it because I'm recognizing that there are Even in the goals, we have both output goals and outcome goals.

Yeah. And habits can contribute more directly to output goals, and outcome goals are going to be over a longer period of time. And so my current approach [00:34:00] didn't reflect that distinction. And then I have some daily habits that I just want to be a part of who I am. And so those are always there. And then there are other daily habits that are more specific to this two weeks.

I didn't have that kind of a distinction yet, but something, I mean, if you're really, really looking for, um, a repeatable way to look and see what kind of progress have I made. Having a tracking sheet, uh, I actually made it in Excel and printed it out so that I could have that physical experience of marking the yes or the check.

Yeah. And then scribbling notes in different places, things that I've learned of how I want to do things differently for the next two week period. But that, that's a way if you're really looking to be, what's the word I'm looking for? Not mechanical, but very probably pragmatic, very, [00:35:00] yeah, very, very pragmatic, very logistical.


Aaron Rackley: I think, yeah, no, I've, I keep hearing about journaling and this habit tracking. Um, I've heard it multiple times now over the last few months. So, um, it's definitely something I need to try. I, um, I've not been, I've tried to have a journal in the past, but I've never been successful. But now. With the growth that's going on, maybe it's time to give it a go, another go, see how it goes.

Um, awesome. Now, it, I, and

Steve Dwire: I, I would challenge the statement, I've never been successful. If I can. Yeah, go for it, yeah. You said you've tried a journal. Have you written a journal entry? Yes, yes. So you've been successful?

Aaron Rackley: I've been successful in that sense, yes.

Steve Dwire: Now whether it's, whether it has accomplished what you've wanted to accomplish, or even if you knew what you hoped to [00:36:00] accomplish by it.

Yeah. That might be a different question to explore for a future iteration.

Aaron Rackley: Yeah, yeah. Self reflection. I think, I think it never had a purpose. So it was never something that became a habit. So it never became, in my eyes, useful. So, yeah.

Steve Dwire: An illustration of that difference between being driven to do something, because you read somewhere that it was a good thing to do, versus being drawn to do it because it's bringing you closer to a goal you want to achieve.

Aaron Rackley: Yeah, awesome. Now, I think that's the perfect place to, uh, to wrap up, uh, the personal growth, uh, conversation, but there is, there is a lot to unpick in this, this area. So maybe, hopefully, you could come back on another time and we could delve into a bit more. But, um, obviously, you've listened to my podcast.

So, [00:37:00] you know what's coming. Um, I ask everyone that comes on to recommend a book. Um, it doesn't have to be around this area, it could just be your favourite nursery rhyme book from when you were a kid. Um, so yeah, do you have any favourites you could recommend?

Steve Dwire: Um, okay, I heard the word favourites, so more than one is okay?

Aaron Rackley: Yeah, more than one's fine. I had someone I think do five, so I've got, yeah.

Steve Dwire: Um, so in the area of doing, I would say James Clear's Atomic Habits. Um, because he does explore that interrelationship between the doing and the being and that has been, you know, it's, it's, it's not going to be some hidden gem. I mean, a lot of people probably already heard of that one, but atomic habits is a really good one.

Great book. Yeah. And then on the area of being, this is not [00:38:00] a. Mind blowing. Oh my goodness. There's so much insight in here book, but it was, it was fascinating to me just to expand if we can expand our vocabulary around internal understanding. I think it gives us a lot more flexibility, a lot more fluency.

In being able to understand internal growth. So, uh, Brené Brown recently published a book called Atlas of the Heart, and it explores the various shades of color of emotion. That we experience under different circumstances and then being able to recognize the distinction between different things that we often lump under the same thing.

And so Atlas of the Heart is, I just found to be a really fascinating read.

Aaron Rackley: Awesome. I will, I've already got atomic habits, [00:39:00] but I'll definitely be adding the Alice of the Heart to the book bookshelf. Um, and before you go, um, where can everyone find you online? Company

Steve Dwire: website would be northwayinsights. com Also Northway Insights on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, or Steve Dwyer.

D-W-I-R-E. It's a weird way of spelling it, but, um, steve dwyer.com or Steve Dwyer on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Okay. And all the social media. Yeah. I basically share the same thing, so . Fair enough. Awesome. You, you go to one and you'll

Aaron Rackley: see it all. . Yeah. Awesome. Now, obviously, thank you. for coming on and I hope that you can come on again in the future.

Um, to talk more about this, but yeah, thank you for taking the time.

Steve Dwire: Alright, and thanks for the invitation, and thank you for your boldness in stepping out in this growth area that's helping a whole bunch of other people. Thank you.[00:40:00]

Aaron Rackley: Hey, thank you for making it all the way to the end of today's episode. It really means the world to me that you've made it this far. I really do love making these episodes, and I'd love to make even more. So please, if you have two minutes to spare, can you share this podcast on your social media sites?

Or even point it to a guest you think would be great to come onto the show? And if you are one of those guests and want to come on, please reach out at contact at tech leadership decoded podcast. com. And until next time, have a great day and I'll see you soon.