Inside this episode
Today we are in conversation with Sade Turner-Moise answering the question What is Diversity & Inclusion? D&I for short.
Host: Aaron Rackley
Guest: Sade Turner-Moise
Book Recommendations:
- Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead by Sheryl Sandberg
- Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It by Chris Voss and Tahl Raz
Show Transcript
These transcripts where auto generated by Descript. If you see any issues, please do reach out and we can rectify the issues.
Aaron Rackley: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. My name is Aaron and I’m a tech lead here from the uk. And welcome to this episode of the Tech Leadership Decoded podcast. The podcast where through conversations we unraveled the intricacies of leadership in the tech industry and provide insights on how it’s become a top performing leader.
Today we have a great conversation with Sade Turner Moy answering a, the question, what is diversity and inclusion? D and i for sure. I hope you enjoy this conversation, and if you like it, please remember to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite player and stay tuned for more upcoming episodes. And if you’re a tech leader and would like to come and have a conversation with me about a subject you’re passionate about, please email me via contact@techleadershipdecoded.com.
And with that, let’s get straight into today’s conversation. Welcome to today’s episode. How you doing today?
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah, all good. All good? Yeah, really good day. Working at home today. Um, so yeah, a little more productive, I would say. But yeah, just getting, getting through some admin.
Aaron Rackley: [00:01:00] Brilliant. Now, today we’re gonna be talking about diversity and inclusion, and I’m intrigued by this.
Um, and it’s a topic that has been coming up a lot. I think, especially for the companies I’ve been working for the last few years. It’s definitely like, There’s training that’s starting to come around this area now, which never happened before. So I thought I’d reach out to you to see if you could come on and really talk about what that means and what that means for people in a leadership role and what we can do to obviously help in this area.
But before we dive into the questions, do you just wanna introduce yourself and talk about your experience and how diversity and inclusion is important to you? Yeah,
Sade Turner-Moise: a hundred percent. Um, so yeah, my name’s Sade and I am a tech recruiter based in London. Uh, we mainly work actually with German based companies, but of course, uh, also in London as well.
It pretty depends on, on what the MO market is. Um, and yes, I’ve been in tech recruitment for the last four years. Um, I would probably argue like many graduates, uh, came out [00:02:00] university, um, had no clue what I wanted to do. Uh, my studies philosophy actually, which is very, very different to tech recruitment.
Um, but yeah. Studied that. Um, my nan honestly thought I was gonna become a priest and I had to put polite. You tell her, Nan, that’s not what philosophy is, but yeah. Um, but yeah, kind of fell into recruitment and I think tech recruitment was something, or tech in general was always something that I was always quite interested in.
I think tech’s ever changing. There’s so much going on. It’s just a really exciting space to be in. So yeah, I was really grateful for the opportunity to, to be at Impala, which is a startup. Um, and yeah, I’ve been in this space for nearly four years and they really, really exciting, gone through the pandemic, which like many people was a struggle in itself.
But yeah, I think it’s been really good to work throughout different periods and yeah, I think very recently got really, really, uh, I mean, I’ve always been. Interested in the kind of DNI aspect. I went to an all girls school, um, all girls high school. Mm-hmm. So was actually quite an interesting experience because up until maybe 1617, [00:03:00] I’d not known any different.
It was, so there was girls everywhere. Our teachers were all female, the head teacher was female, there was no men anywhere. Um, and then, uh, stepped into the working world and it was almost the opposite. Especially in tech and recruitment. There are a lot more men than what they are females. And to do really well in this space, you have to.
You have to have a voice and you can’t get lost in everything. So yeah, it was, I think d and I became a lot more apparent when I kind of stepped into working world, especially in tech. I’m sure we’ll get into it, but the numbers for women are very low. So yeah, I’ve always been quite interested in, in how I can use my voice and an industry to get more women in the tech space, especially at leadership level.
Cause I think that’s where we’re going wrong, for sure.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah, definitely. I guess let’s start right at the beginning. Yeah. What is diversity and inclusion? Like what is, how do we define that? Yeah. What does that mean?
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. Yeah. So I think really good question actually. And, and from my podcast and from my doing my research, it’s very different for everyone.
Um, and I think often I find that we do look at d and i very narrowly, but for [00:04:00] me, I think. You know, d n I, uh, environment is having one or having people from all backgrounds or perspectives. Uh, like I said, I think we look at d Nni as men and women and I think for me it’s, that’s okay. And I think in tech that is what it is, right?
I think in the tech space, I think women make up 20% of, of the tech world, uh, in the uk and I think 0.7% of, of. Women of those women are black. So it’s even, you know, when you actually get into the nitty gritty of everything, the numbers get lower and lower as you go, get more into detail. Um, but yeah, I think it’s more than just having, you know, more, more women in the space.
It’s about different perspectives, different educational backgrounds, different cultures. Um, and I think bringing all those people together to really build the best product, build the best tech team, um, that’s, that’s what I think it really is. It’s not just about male and females. Whilst it is a very much, that, it’s a lot more than that, I
Aaron Rackley: would say.
Yeah, no, I totally, totally get what you’re saying. I think it sounds like a silly question, a silly question to ask. Um, [00:05:00] but why is it crucial, do you think, for organizations to prioritize, you know, D N I in their recruitment process?
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah, yeah. So I think there are various reasons as to why I think it’s important, but I think it goes back to that di diverse perspective.
I think. It allows different viewpoints to come into, to come into play and everything. Mm-hmm. It allows you to attract top talent, build products that can cater to a different audience. You know, just by having different people you can do so many different things. Uh, and I actually read an article, I think diverse teams do a lot better in, in terms of success than teams are not diverse.
Mm-hmm. Um, for various reasons, but I think it’s really crucial when it comes to just. Doing a lot more and having different perspectives involved. Um, you know, when you go out to dinner with a group of friends and you’re, you’re all put the same restaurant cause you’re all from the same group of friends and the, the same sort of people, uh, whereby having different people with different backgrounds enable you to kind of build, build better products, I would say for sure.
Yeah.
Aaron Rackley: Okay. Uh, just thinking on that, cuz it, [00:06:00] what I’m trying to be careful of is that obviously I. In diversity inclusion. From my understanding from the training I had literally in this year, I am very much on the privileged end of the spectrum cuz I am, you know, typical white man, middle aged, grew up in London, in the uk so I basically have almost as much as.
You can get in terms of privilege. So I have, I, when I think of these questions, I generally try and think, am I asking the right question or am I biased in myself on it? So, so bear with me as I think through some of these. No, no. There’s
Sade Turner-Moise: all wrong way, I would say, and that’s what I’ve learned from from this.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. What is the challenges that people and individuals have and groups of people have when pursuing roles? Um, Not, obviously we’re gonna focus on tech industry in general, but obviously this applies across the board, but what is the general, the barriers that you think they come against? Yeah. When [00:07:00] we’re
Sade Turner-Moise: hiring?
Yeah. Yeah, so I think. I think a lot of it come from a lack of representation, I think. Mm-hmm. You know, for, for me as well, you know, let’s be honest, I’m a, I’m a black woman of color. Um, so I, I guess you were saying that you were, you know, in terms of privilege, you are up there. I think, you know, you could maybe argue the opposite for myself.
Um, not in that way, but you know, I am in that minority group. Um, and I think often underrepresented groups such as women, such as ethnic minorities, um, they don’t see enough people like them in the workplace. Um, and I think especially in the tech world, especially in leadership roles. Um, and I think that’s really hard cuz it can lead them to feel quite, I isolated and make it hard for them to kind of find role models or mentors who share similar experiences.
Um, it might not be seen as a bad thing. I think for me, I always looked for mentors who were different from me, who were in a life that I wanted to be in, um, who were in places that I wanted to get. So I think it’s not a bad thing, but it can be quite hard to see yourself in those roles. So I think that’s one thing.
Um, I think [00:08:00] access is important as well. I think. A lot of underrepresented groups do not have access to the same opportunities, whether that’s education, um, networking events, you know, career development programs. I mean, I remember looking to get into all the graduate programs, you know, that were, you know, all from the big names.
And of course then, you know, they don’t look at. Not people like me, but you know, you know that you get what I’m saying. So I think, you know, there’s limited access for those groups to get to where they need to get to or to get there where they want to be. Um, and I think as well, you could maybe argue certain stereotypes, certain prejudice, make it really hard for hiring managers to see these people in those roles, which make it harder for us to get there.
Um, mm-hmm. And then I think as well, you know, it is really hard to not talk about challenges without talking about bias. Um, I think, like I said, right, discrimination does come into play when you think about underrepresented groups. Um, stereotype perception, um, like I said, it makes it really hard for hiring managers to see those people in those roles.
Um, then when you get there, it then makes it [00:09:00] harder for those people to see you in promotion roles or, you know, leadership roles. So I think the bias is, is, is kind of everywhere in that. Um, but I think it’s often quite hard for. I guess for barriers to be broken down if hiring managers do not see. People that are different in those sort of roles.
So I think there are various challenges, but I think those are a few which I’ve seen. Um, and even, you know, in my role helping engineers, you know, move to different companies, I see it all the time. Um, so I’ve seen it firsthand, I guess from my own experience, but also, um, where I am. Uh, but it’s not in every company, right?
I think I really lucky where I work, but I’m. I’m the most senior person in the team. And I think that for me speaks volumes. Cause I think as a woman of color, you know, you don’t see that often. So I think it’s not in every company that you see this, but in, in, in a few companies and speaking with friends, it is, it is a common experience for ethnic minorities or minorities in general
Aaron Rackley: at the moment we’re, we are hiring our company, for example.
And you are, as you said, helping recruit individuals for other [00:10:00] companies. What can we do when looking for. New hires to reach a more diverse pool of people. Um, because obviously if I go onto my LinkedIn and I just search, I’m probably gonna only get a, a very narrow view of, of the world and if I do the same on Twitter or Facebook when I’m looking for jobs.
And so what can we do to help find more diversity in our hiring processes, do you think?
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is a, it’s, it’s a really interesting question there. Cause I think me, in my job as well, I’ve done the same, so I was actually working with a company and they said to me, we have a, we have an engineering team full of males.
How can, how can you help me find more females? Mm-hmm. So I’ve been there and I’ve seen how you can do it. So I think. I think firstly you have to really set out some clear goals. I think set the clear d n I goals. Mm-hmm. Which you want to achieve. Um, because otherwise what you’re doing, you could be working against what you actually do want to get to in the end.
So I think having those goals in place, Um, it may include setting targets [00:11:00] for hiring diverse candidates, promoting diverse talent. Um, so it may be the case, your goal is to hire more females, so set that as your goal and look at ways you can achieve that. Um, and I think you then have to be intentional about that.
As well. Um, you can’t do it halfheartedly. You have to kind of go at it full force and really be intentional about making these goals a priority. Um, I think that’s one place to start, for sure. Set the goals and see what you want to actually do. Mm-hmm. And how, what diversity do you want to include in your team?
You know, maybe more females, more cultures, whatever the case. Um, I don’t think ways you can actually do that is diversifying your hiring practice. So it could be ensuring your job descriptions are a lot more inclusive. So using gender neutral language, um, or using language doesn’t, I guess cater to one group.
Um, I mean, we’ve seen it quite a lot, right? We want ambitious, hungry, career driven. Um, you know, those things all apply to, to both genders, but often that ambitious, eager. Confident it does tend [00:12:00] to, to kind of suit males more, let’s say. So having, I guess, language Okay. Which, which is a lot more inclusive, um, I think really helps, I think ensuring that your interview panel is diverse as well or is a lot more inclusive, um, and involves different people mm-hmm.
From different walks of life. That really helps cuz like I said, um, when hiring, it’s not just about what, what you are doing, it’s about do people want to join your company as well. Um, so I think. Having people from different walks of life on that interview panel allows people from diverse backgrounds to kind of see themself in that role as well.
Um, I think you mentioned a bit about at the beginning, right, training. Um, and I think training is something which is a lot more popular now, like you said. Um, and I think we have to keep going of that. I think bias trainings is really important because you could do all that work to attract that new diverse talent and you can get them involved in your interview process, but if the bias within your internal hiring team isn’t.
Addressed you will [00:13:00] get, you will kind of go back to square one because the changes that you’ve made say to kind of bring more women to the hiring manager. Um, if his biases are still in his head, he will just reject them. So there has to be a lot more training to raise awareness of bias and I guess equip the team to really mitigate bias in the decision process and in the decision making.
Um, because otherwise, like I said, you’ll be back to square one. I think as well, right? Those are a few things which I think are a lot more practical. Um, and I think hiring is one thing which is really important, but retaining that talent is equally as important. So when those people join your team, You have to make sure they’re welcome.
The environment is inclusive, so having e r g groups or, you know, mentorship and sponsorship programs whereby people can connect with others like them and really kind of stay in that company. So I think hiring is important, but making sure that the team is, is, is kind of set and, and, and quick to have that diverse team is, is very important as well.
Yeah,
Aaron Rackley: no, what, that was gonna be my next question as well, which is like, now that we’ve. [00:14:00] Managed to successfully hire. Yeah. A range of individuals, you know, how, how do we make our environments more inclusive? Um, and I know you’ve mentioned a couple of there, but do you wanna go into a bit more detail of like what, what that group is that you mentioned before and how, what, those kind of things, how they work or how you’d even go about setting these kind of things up?
Yeah, if you have any ideas around that. Yeah.
Sade Turner-Moise: Definitely, definitely. So I think, like you mentioned, right, D n I and you know, the, the kind of inclusive environment is so much more than hiring. You know, once you’ve got them there, how can you keep them there? Um, so I think ERG groups is, is one way of just, it’s really beneficial, right?
Cuz I think it provides impact outside of that hiring process. Um, I think it provides a space for networking support, community building it, I guess it. Creates like a space whereby people can come together in the same group that can share their same challenges because some people may find it hard to express their challenges to someone who is very different or won’t see that.
Um, so yeah, having a space whereby [00:15:00] individuals who are very similar and share the same challenges can come together is really important. So those groups are, are really beneficial. Um, I think as well, having benefits for different individuals. And different kind of employee benefits are really important.
Um, you know, not all benefits are gonna catered to the same group. Um, so I think having, I guess not individual benefits, cuz every individual is very different, but having more inclusive benefits, um, so employees can kind of feel supported and valued. Um, such as, you know, flexible parental leave or flexible working arrangements, those things.
And I think one thing which I’m really, really passionate about, and I think one, one reason why I think it’s really important is d and I isn’t just a one day thing. It’s not just in the hiring process. Mm-hmm. I think d and I has to be celebrated all year round. So it’s not just International Women’s Day.
You know, organize events that, you know, promote cultural awareness such as, you know, lunch and learn or you know, breakfast, you know. Breakfast invite, whatever the case may be. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:16:00] guest speaker series. I think there’s so much things we can do all year round and equally right. I hate to say it, but it’s not just the diverse group’s job to do this.
It’s not just the women that have to kind of speak up other women. It should be everyone getting involved and creating that environment whereby everyone can feel really welcome.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. We used to, uh, a company I worked in in the past, which was a relatively big company, they. The company paid for, I think it was once a month, every Friday.
It’s just one of the things they did, they had like a, a bot or something that would randomly pick six people in the company at any level, anywhere across the business and you’d have to go and have lunch together. And it was a way to like just bridge everyone together. So it was like cross departments, you know, and diversity as well.
So I thought, I think that’s a very, I think that’s a nice way to. To do it. I’m not saying it’s the only way. I’m just saying it’s just one, one experience I’ve had that I thought was very nice. Yeah. Uh, because one thing that’s interesting is obviously [00:17:00] this podcast is more focused on tech leadership, so how we can, what we can do in leadership to make this better.
Um, but definitely going from my mind at the moment is I just had a podcast a couple of episodes about, about. Focusing on the growth of your individuals in your team makes strong teams. Yeah, so now immediately my brain is thinking, okay, I’ve now got a team of diverse people that have, have experiences and backgrounds I am not familiar with or might not have the same experience.
How as a leader do I break down or become familiar with the. Those challenges so that I’m able to help them in, if they do come to me with a kind of life issue or a another area that’s coaching that they need, that is not necessarily tech related, which is a big part of being a manager, role leader. Like, I’m just trying to think what we can do there.
Yeah. We might not have the outset
Sade Turner-Moise: that No, no. I mean, of course. I, I must admit right. I’m not, um, a DNI [00:18:00] expert, nor am I, you know, um, yeah. Any expert in general, I think I can just share from my own experience and, and kind of what I’ve seen other companies do really well at.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. I think that’s all, all we can ask.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah, I think, yeah, I, I think one thing, I think my. I, I have to kind of commend my, my company now, my, my bosses. I think they’ve created such a, a safe environment whereby anyone from any walk of life felt really was really comfortable coming to them. And I think that’s what leaders can really do. I think having that safe environment whereby even if that person doesn’t actually come and speak to you, but they feel they can, that’s what’s really important.
So I think creating that safe environment, um, whereby we, you know, you can feel comfortable speaking up, sharing ideas. Um, best in concerns without any kind of fear of judgment. I think that’s really important. Um, equally right, it could be the case. You are not equipped to deal with that or you do not feel equipped.
Um, it could be the case, you know, someone that shares a similar experience, you know, even just connecting those people together. Mm-hmm. Um, for example, my, my boss. Did it really well. They, [00:19:00] um, they connected me with other women in the recruitment industry because of course, they’re not women, so they, there may be challenges, right.
The most bosses, um, do not understand or have not been through. But having a really good network of other individuals that share, that could share similar experiences and being open to connecting them, you know? Right. Cause like I said, you might not be equipped to deal with everything and you shouldn’t be, you know, you’re not, this is not, you know, um, not everyone knows everything.
Um, but being open. Yeah. You know, Knowing other people is really important as well. I think
Aaron Rackley: definitely what you say there is definitely a, a great avenue to go down of just making sure that as a leader you are, you have a diverse pool of people that you have access to that you can also give them access to, whether that’s in the company or as you say, as your wider network.
I have noticed in teams that I’ve worked in the past that, and I think this is a skill that I think is important, and this is less of a question and more of like a, a topic, is that I generally believe that. A diverse team from, you know, [00:20:00] male, female, race, age, whatever, I think brings so much different experiences to problem solving.
Mm. That I generally love having conversations where there’s multiple people in the room because you just 100% are gonna come up with so many different ideas and different approaches to problems. Um, that it kind of almost saddens me that people don’t realize that they’re not allowing that to happen through their own bias of not hiring in this way.
Based on your area of knowledge at the moment, do you know any companies that have like made radical changes? Because I’ve seen a lot on LinkedIn and online the news and stuff like that of like companies that are really pushing towards diversity inclusion and then. There’s always studies from different locations of like, did it work, did it not work?
Things like that. I’ve only seen [00:21:00] positive. Have you seen anything that’s trying to be negative around that area and, and do you think it is something that will creep into the thought process of people in leadership that are trying to make these choices? Um, For example, I’ll give you an example that might not be relevant, but the three day week thing that’s happening Yeah.
Is a conversation around people going three day week and we’re having a low conversations around whether we should do that or not. And then we’ve had PE companies to go out there and do it, and now. We’ve got companies that are trying to pull people back and are trying to make up excuses for why it doesn’t work or it does work.
And I’m worried, from what I’ve seen online, that we’ve got the same kind of arguments happening with diversity inclusion and trying to be sensitive to that, to that side of the argument that’s happening of, cuz I don’t believe it for one bit, but. [00:22:00] I’m just trying to think of the right question to ask, so bear with me.
Sade Turner-Moise: No, I mean, I guess to be fair, it, I, I’ve not seen any negative come from having mm-hmm. A more diverse team. To be completely honest. I’ve not seen any team that have, have changed their team or made it more diverse and thought we shouldn’t have done, never done that. You know, I think, like you said, it. It brings the difference of perspectives, um, it gives the difference of viewpoints.
And I think, like you said, it allows problems to be solved a lot quicker. Um, you could have a group of people that have, now you’ve got a group of people, right, that have someone in that team that has actually been through this already. Um, so now you are well equipped to deal of whatever that may be. So I think they can offer help.
Um, they can offer, you know, different, um, scenarios, uh, solutions. So, yeah, I, I, I think, you know, when it comes to making change, I don’t think you’d make the change if you thought it was gonna do any bad, you know? So I think the changes I’ve seen on the diversity side, I, I’ve only seen nothing but good come from this.
So, yeah, I don’t think [00:23:00] so from my experience anyway, may,
Aaron Rackley: may, maybe that’s, um, a bit of diversity inclusion, literally right there is the. Obviously some social algorithm somewhere are showing me a certain viewpoint of the world and it’s not diverging enough for me to get a bigger picture. So I definitely need to get on LinkedIn and add some more people, I assume, or like in different, yeah.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. I think everyone. Experience and everyone’s, I mean, if you, if you were to scroll on my social media and, and I was scrolling yours, we’d be like, what the hell? Right. So everyone’s viewpoint is very different. So yeah, I think it’s just about being open and learning about other things and, and, and actually being, like I said, open to seeing the world in a different way.
I think that’s what, where we’re going mm-hmm. Where I think we can go be better. Okay.
Aaron Rackley: Let me, let me bring it back to positivity. Um, I am an individual. I am, I can be either a leader or a personal contributor. Um, I am. Of a [00:24:00] demographic that is not, you know, as privileged as another, and I’m now looking for a job.
What can I do to help in that scenario? Because I know I always like to fit, there’s two sides to every, every story and every situation. So if I’m out there actively look looking for hiring, what can you do as an individual that can help get your, get you in front of me as well? I guess is the, do you other side of that
Sade Turner-Moise: coin.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think it, for me personally, I think it definitely comes back to networking. I think, you know, whether you’re from a diverse group or not, you have to be open to meeting new people. Um, mm-hmm. I think, I’ll be honest, I think LinkedIn and job boards and, you know, the normal way we’d normally do things is.
It’s very saturated right now. You know, we’ve seen so many layoffs happen at the large companies like Facebook, me, you know, um, zoom, you know, Microsoft, all those large companies that are having layoffs. Where are those people? They’re, they’re searching on LinkedIn. You know, they’re, they’re everywhere. [00:25:00] Um, so I think you have to be open to find something in a different way.
It could be the case. You have a friend who knows, a friend who knows a friend. You know, my, my parents always said, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, what is it saying again? It’s who you know, what you know. So yeah, I think it’s, mm-hmm. It’s all about being open to networking in circles that are different to yours, I would say.
Um, So, yeah, I think networking, if you are struggling, you know, whether diverse or not is, is definitely the key to, to finding something or finding someone.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. No, I’m a big advocate for, um, like tech meetup meetups and things like that. Um, I always tell all my developers, um, just go, go to network even if you are not necessarily going to.
Stay for the whole thing, just go and have a chat, go and see what’s going on. And one of the big things of like, um, these conferences that happen, and again, this is. It can be a pivot finish cuz they cost a lot of money. So hopefully your [00:26:00] company will Yeah. Help you go there. But, but they’re a hundred percent worth going to just for the networking that happens at these events.
I’ve, you know, I’ve met so many people that I’d never have met online if I’d literally stayed in that bubble. And if you stay in work, that’s even the smaller bubble, right? There’s only like so many of you. I guess a question I have. I’ve decided that my company is not doing enough and that’s what it’s not.
That’s not really what I’m saying in my company. I’m just saying in generalized the question, I’ve decided that it’s, we’re not doing enough and I want to start, you know, helping the company explore. D n I. Do you have any resources or do you know any, any organizations or courses or do you know, globe anything that is a good place to point people towards in this area?
Yeah. Yeah,
Sade Turner-Moise: so I think. Well, me personally, I’m part of a few Slack channels that are exactly this. So, um, there are a few, uh, places where I think I was speaking to someone on LinkedIn and she was part of it, so she invited me and, [00:27:00] and yeah, there’s so many different Slack channels I think you can join. Um, have conversations, meet new people, like I said.
Um, I think that’s, that’s of course a good place to, to start Foot, foot. If I’m honest, because I think that’s where you’re gonna learn about different aspects, meet new people and see exactly what, what we could do more. Mm-hmm.
Aaron Rackley: Okay. Yeah. Um, if you happen to know, if you wanna share any links to those, I’ll definitely put them, um, on the channel.
Yeah. Um, as well. Cause that’d be really
Sade Turner-Moise: awesome. Yeah. Um, as well. Another one I just remembered, there’s a, an article that McKinsey wrote, I think it’s called Women in the Workplace. Um, and that’s really interesting for, it doesn’t just talk about, well, of course the focus is women in the workplace, but it talks about diversity from different angles.
Um, there is, uh, actually I think, uh, there’s an author that I read a book, she, I can’t remember the name and I’m not doing her any justice here. Um, I’ll find it. The book’s called Lean In. And it’s by Cheryl Sandberg. She actually has a few talks on, uh, Ted Talks, uh, about it as well. And she’s created [00:28:00] like some, it’s like a community, um, where people can lean in and speak about different aspects.
I can share a link as well afterwards, but mm-hmm. Yeah, she’s done some really, really great talks, you know, about why women are held back, um, and how we could kind of lean into to kind of. Get more out it. So yeah, I can share some more links afterwards and you could put it in the podcast notes. But yeah, those are a few off the top of my head, which I’ve benefited from and I’ve seen other people benefit from as
Aaron Rackley: well.
No. Awesome. Yeah, I’ll definitely, definitely be reading that book. I’ve just added it to my list. Yeah. Yeah. Really good. Um, a little while ago we were just talking about, um, what can you do as an individual to put yourself in front of other people, but what if you are someone that’s finding. They’re struggling to get into like a leadership level within organizations.
Like what can we, what can you do and what can we do to help in those scenarios? Right.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. Yeah. I think definitely, you know, putting yourself forward for a lot more, um, in this, and, and I don’t mean doing more and, and kind of. Not, you know, [00:29:00] you know, I don’t mean like just doing more than your job title, so to speak.
Um, yeah, I mean, you know, it could be the case where putting yourself forward for, you know, different activities. Um, cuz it could be the case, I think a lot of the time, you know, a promotion might not come from your own manager, right? It could come from another team or another hiring manager who’s also looking for a lead.
So I think putting yourself out there in different situations to meet new people and, and within your organization, right? It could be a company sports day or a company, you know. Go, you know, grabbing a coffee at different coffee station in the office. I think putting yourself in different situations whereby you can meet other people who are the decision makers.
Mm-hmm. Cause it could be the case your manager right now is just not gonna throw out you. Right. Um, not the case. Right. I’m sure. But they just might not need a lead. Um, so you might need to kind of put yourself out of your comfort zone and, and maybe go and speak with other people. Um mm-hmm. I think as well, another good thing as well is a lot of people are, I guess maybe scared to move on.
Um, I see a lot of. [00:30:00] People just, I guess, sticking within a, a role or waiting for that promotion to come. Like I said, it might not come work from your own company, from your own team, um, but putting yourself in a situation outside of that whereby that could happen. Um mm-hmm. I think as well also speaking up saying, you know, not, I deserve a promotion, right?
Mm-hmm. But it could be the case whereby you have a one-on-one with your manager and you say, Hey, I’m doing this. Um, I feel like I should be in touch to this, you know, is that possible here? You’re not giving them an ultimatum. Right. But I think often I do find that, you know, under reps in groups are, are fairly scared to have a conversation or they don’t wanna come across in a certain way or whatever the case may be.
Right? Um, but how else are we gonna get there? Um, so I think putting myself in that conversation and saying, I would like this. I’m not being, I don’t feel satisfied where I am now. Is this possible? I think having those conversations and being open to them is really important as well.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. I think, um, as you point out there, [00:31:00] um, just one aspect in your one-to-ones is definitely a great way to approach it, right?
Because it’s say usually at companies are one-to-one. Um, situation is very helpful in pushing you towards your career path through that bus, through that company or business, right? So, Giving them a clear, I want to progress. Yeah. What do I need to get? There is always a good conversation to have and it forces the, the individual on the other end to actually think about it.
Yeah, yeah. Um, as well. So I think, I think if anything, I’d always say as a, as a tech leader, I’d always say, definitely bring it up in your one-to-one straightaway. Just set your expectations with your leadership of what, what your career plans are and where you want to go, and just get them to help you.
List out the steps to get there. I think it’s a great, great thing to
Sade Turner-Moise: do. Yeah, because like everything, right, people may not know you want that, that. That promotion. Right. So you have to set it a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. They might feel, they might think, oh, [00:32:00] well she’s comfortable in that role, or, you know, he does he even want to progress.
So I think actually saying, this is what I wanna do, how am I gonna get there? What do I need to do? Um, is really important.
Aaron Rackley: I think, yeah, cuz I think there’s, there was a few years back where, I can’t remember who was arguing or where, but it was, it was always, it was about the, the page, the pay gap between men and women.
Yeah. And then there was statistics out there that, you know how much of these statistics you believe, but you know, there was one that like, men tend to ask for promotions more so they get more promotions or they tend to ask for raises more so they get more raises. So, I think the one thing I took away from that when that was happening was if that’s true, then everyone else needs to just start asking.
Yeah. But again, like there’s that history of being afraid to ask, I guess, because of the pushback that’s happened. So I think we just. I think personally that we just need to all get better at just asking for what we want and you know, go from there. [00:33:00]
Sade Turner-Moise: That’s like everything in life, right? Like I said, if you don’t ask, my mom was said.
If you don’t ask, you won’t get. Um, so I think all is ask and the worst they can say is no. Uh, and yeah, it sounds really bad, but you are already in the position for them to say no. Right. Because you’re not in that leadership role. Yeah. So even if they say no, that’s where you are already. So it’s not that you’re gonna be pushed back further.
You’re just not gonna be where you might want to be. Um, so yeah. Yeah. I think having no is, is, is a bad thing. And looking at ways you can make sure you get that Yes. Is, is, is important
Aaron Rackley: I think personally as well. I think there’s a safety and a no because yeah. What I think a no gives you is the power to know that they’re not, they’re not interested for whatever that question is, right?
They’ve decided they don’t wanna deal with it, so that gives you the freedom and the power to go. I will go somewhere else that’s willing. To do that. But until you ask that question, you’re never gonna know whether that’s the case. Right. And then you could just be sitting around for a very long time.
[00:34:00] Yeah. Yeah. Hoping
Sade Turner-Moise: for the best. Yeah. I mean, in my role, right? I speak with so many engineers at all different levels. Um, and I think from, so I’ve been speaking with a lot of CTOs and VPs of engineering, uh, lot recently, of course for my podcast, encouraging more women to get into tech. Um, and I think what I’ve seen from, from these women is they just ask, um, and a lot of.
What I’ve been saying, you know, how did you get to where you are? Well, they had to move on from company that, that didn’t see them progressing. So that’s one thing. But they had to ask for those pro promotions, right? They have to say, they have to kind of mm-hmm. Have a voice. You can’t unfortunately sit there and be quiet because that’s where you kind of get lost in the company.
Um mm-hmm. And I think from what I’ve seen, and, and a lot of progression does happen, just from speaking up. Um, so yeah, for sure. Actually, I’m speaking of the lady right now. Amazing, amazing engineer. She’s actually moving from her current company, um, for an even better package and even better, um, opportunity elsewhere.
And I think having that courage to be okay, uh, to move on and be okay to ask is really [00:35:00] important.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. And then I think like, um, there’s the opposite of that as well is that as a leader, it’s, you should be encouraging that kind of. Environment of people being able to just come and ask questions and they should.
If it isn’t, no, I think you should have a no of a reason and you should go back with a reason and that will help. But you should never just be. Creating environment where you just shut people down and say, no, move on. Let’s carry on.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. And it may not be a no. Right? It could be a not right now. Um, but here’s not right now.
That’s important. Yes. But, but it, it could be, uh, you know, here’s reasons or here’s how you can make it sooner than what you might think. So, yeah. It’s, it’s a no’s not a bad thing. Like you said, it’s a safe place for, for you to
Aaron Rackley: work on a lot more. Mm-hmm. We, we briefly touched a minute ago on. Uh, things that I could do to bring, uh, into the organization, um, d and i and how I could start that kind of, you know, [00:36:00] implementation into the business.
But do you think that there are kind of like any, uh, potential challenges that. As an individual who’s trying to bring that to the table could come across when, when
Sade Turner-Moise: that happens. Yeah. I mean, there are always challenges, right? And I think often, um, as a, as a leader, right, you know, a tech lead you of often have a someone above you as well, right?
Um, so it could be the case. Mm-hmm. As, as a leader, you go to your manager and say, I think this is important. Um, here’s what I want to do. Um, to help with this issue. Um, they might say no. Right? And that’s absolutely okay. Um, but it, I think it’s, like I said, it’s all about having that environment whereby you can still have those conversations and people can still come to you.
Um, I think as a leader you should look at your team as like, Somewhat a mini company in that, in, in that sense, um, whereby everyone in there feels comfortable to come to you and they may not be comfortable to come to anyone else above them. Uh, but I [00:37:00] think that challenge is, is having that conversation itself.
There might be a no, um, And it could be the case, someone says, no, we’re not having that. We’re not pushing that forward. Um, but often it is a yes. So I think you need to be that voice for the people in your team that do see the benefit in that. So yeah, I think the challenge could be that it would be shut down by, by someone else.
Right. But I think you need to be that person to kind of push those things forward. Otherwise it
Aaron Rackley: won’t change. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent agree with you that, I know that you said you ha, you’ve mentioned a few times that you have a blog, um, Sorry, a podcast. Can you just quickly let us know what that podcast is about?
Because I want I 100 after I’ve listened to a few episodes after meeting you. And I definitely want you to come back onto this podcast again in the future, um, maybe with one of your guests. Um, because I would, I’d like you guys to bring a woman’s approach to this conversation that I’m trying to achieve.
Um, so I definitely want you guys to come on [00:38:00] at some point and talk about. Women in tech. So do you wanna just quickly give five minutes on what your, your podcast is about?
Yeah,
Sade Turner-Moise: yeah, of course. So my podcast is, is called Women Talk Tech. Uh, and I guess the, the main aim of it is to encourage more women in the tech space to talk a lot more about it.
Um, whether we talk about our challenges, we talk about what we love about the tech space, we talk about how we’ve achieved what we have done. I think having that conversation, you know, I think a lot of women. Tend not to speak about it. You know, you mentioned that men also pay rises more, um, than, than women.
Mm-hmm. Or whatever the case may be. So I think the podcast really is, is aimed to share the successes of women in the tech space of all areas. Whether you are an engineer or someone like myself who’s helping more to get into this space, that’s what it’s aimed at. Um, and I think. The, I guess my main goal really is to not just share the challenges.
I don’t want the podcast to be quite doom and gloom. I don’t wanna just talk about the low numbers about women in tech. Mm-hmm. Cause if, if you hear such [00:39:00] bad things, how would any other person wanna get involved? So, yeah. I think the main aim really is to, to kind of really shed a light on why more women should be in a tech space and why more women should actually stay in the tech space.
Um, so whether that’s working towards a leadership role, like you mentioned, right? Um, or working with that CTO or even founding your own tech company, um, I think tech is a really exciting place to be in. So I, I hope my podcast is showing that and showing that women can be there and yes, it, yes, you may be the only female engineer there, but there will be others coming.
Aaron Rackley: Yeah. Brilliant. Yes. A hundred percent need to have you come back and we should do a whole episode on just women in tech in general. Um, So, yeah, hopefully we can arrange that. Yeah. So in a second I’m gonna ask you to plug everywhere people can find you online. But before that I, one thing I like to do with all the guests is I like to ask you to recommend a book.
Just one book that if you’re on a desert island [00:40:00] and you have one book to recommend to people to read, it doesn’t have to be tech related, it could be life, it can be just your favorite novel. But I think what I’m trying to do is on the website, eventually I’m gonna build like a bookcase of just all the books.
Yeah. That everyone’s recommended. So, You can take a moment to think about it.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. I about say, I’m thinking now cause I, I’m such a reader, but I literally from like self-help to absolute thrillers.
Aaron Rackley: Uh, well you could, you could always pick one from each section. So I think last week someone said like, here is my fiction of choice, but here is my non-fiction of choice.
So, yeah.
Sade Turner-Moise: Um, yeah. I, I, like I said, I read from thrillers to self-help books, I think. One book that I’ve really, really loved is, um, atomic Habits, um, by, yeah. Great book. Yeah. Has anyone recommended it already? No, but
Aaron Rackley: I, I’ve got that sitting up on the shelf somewhere, but I can’t see it. How, which is being
Sade Turner-Moise: annoying.
Amazing. Yeah, so my boss actually recommended me to read [00:41:00] it. Um, and I, I, like I said, I’ve read thrillers before and I’ve never, I, I was in, I was kind of stepping into that kind of, Realm of books, but never really kind of got stuck into it. Mm-hmm. But I think yeah, if you’ve not read it before, definitely, definitely, definitely grab it.
I think it just looks at ways you can build habits for all aspects of your life. Um, and I think for me, um, that was really good because I was able to apply it to so many different aspects, whether that was work, relationships, family, um, you know, going to the gym. It was just ways we can make small differences in, in my life that will have a massive impact.
Yeah. Um, and I think that’s that for me. I think if I’m gonna read a self-help book, it needs to be very practical. And I think for me it was really practical. Good, clear takeaways. And I think yeah, definitely, definitely would give it a read, for sure. Yeah. No,
Aaron Rackley: I’ve, I’ve read Atomic Habits, uh, fitness by James, clearer it Clear.
Yeah. Uh, and he’s done a co Yeah, he’s done a few other follow-ups as well, I think, uh, if I remember correctly, but yeah. Yeah, I definitely. Definitely a great book.
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah. And I think [00:42:00] for me, whenever you look at making a small change, you, well, making any change, you focus on the, on the massive thing. Like, oh, I want to, yeah.
To kind of buy a house in five years time and the house is the main focus. And for me, that’s a massive goal for me. But I think I was not looking at the small things I could be doing day to day to help me get that. I was like, how I was on the right move every day, you know? Yeah.
Aaron Rackley: I think, I think we all just naturally have that, that problem in general is we, we always are not, I guess we don’t necessarily take the time to appreciate the little steps that it takes to get to where you are going.
Yeah. And so, you know, you’re just willing to just jump straight there. So, yeah. No, definitely a great book. Uh, I’ll definitely add that to the list. Yeah, a hundred percent. And did you say you had one called Split the Difference? Yeah.
Sade Turner-Moise: Never split the difference as well. Um, that is by Chris Boss and never Split Difference.
Yeah, never split the difference. Um, it also is called negotiating as if your life depended on it. Um, I love Oh, okay. [00:43:00] Really, really good. It’s actually by a former F B I, uh, hostage negotiator. Uh, and he just gives, I would say, Again, probably really, really practical habits. I think there were nine, uh, nine principles, um, to help you succeed, um, and negotiate.
Mm-hmm. And I think for me, negotiating is part of my job. Right. Um, but equally, um, I negotiate when negotiate the supermarket or I, you know, everywhere you get a chance. I think it’s really good. You know, when you go to the market and they’re like, oh yeah, 10 pound. I’m like, no, you know, do it for seven.
Okay, I’ll do it for eight. Do it for, you know, come on. So I think, you know, having that skillset to just know when to do it and how to do it, I think that was really good. I think, yeah, like the Chris boss, uh, and Raz, um, yeah, really, really good. Cool.
Aaron Rackley: I will add that one on as well then. Yeah. So thank you honestly for coming onto the podcast.
Diversity inclusion is something that I need to spend a lot more time delving into. Um, I’ve only done a few [00:44:00] simple courses that the companies have provided over the years, but I feel like it’s a deeper topic that I need to actually go out and spend more time exploring. Um, so I appreciate the time coming on to talk about that.
For anyone listening, where can everyone find you online?
Sade Turner-Moise: Yeah, yeah. So of course, uh, my full name is Charade Tomo. Uh, check me out on LinkedIn. Um, I often do kind of write different posts about, you know, women in tech about, you know, how to, you know, navigate interviews. So yeah, all different aspects of posts, but yeah.
Um, also my podcast is on Spotify. It’s called Women Taught Tech. Um, you can find ourselves on Spotify, uh, or on YouTube on our company page. So in par of search. Um, so yeah, check it out. Um, really, really interesting. And we also have some, some exciting guests. Planned. Um, so yeah, I think if there are any women listening who are struggling to break into leadership in the tech world or even just, you know, looking to become an engineer, um, definitely check out the podcast cause I hope it has some practical tips for women to get into the tech space.[00:45:00]
Aaron Rackley: Perfect. And once again, thank you for coming on.
Sade Turner-Moise: No, thank you Aaron for having me. Super was a great, complicated conversation.
Aaron Rackley: Hey, I hope you enjoyed today’s conversation with Sade. Thank you for making it all the way to the end of this podcast. If you like this conversation, can you do me a big favor and can you share the podcast and like it on the platform, your choice, and even leave a review?
It really does help us reach a wider audience. And finally, once again, if you’re a tech leader and would love to come and have a conversation with me about a subject you’re passionate about, please email me via contact@techleadershipcode.com. And I’ll see you in the next episode. Thanks again. Bye.